Did Roger Waters go crazy?

I believe this was one of those vicious cycle things. The worse Wright did the worse rog treated him, the worse Roger treated him, the worse he did.

That's the point I was trying to make...in fact, I have actually been in a parallel experience, and felt what that kind of cycle can do to you. The effect can become so bad that it seems the other person is like a black shadow on your soul that just wants to make you get into a bunker somewhere and never be seen again. Believe me...I wanted to very badly. Trust me...I've been there, in my own way.

This is what can happen when people have completely opposite personalities and one disdains the other. What you are seeing, in all seriousness, in the other person is like a copy of all the lesser-used traits in yourself, the ones you consider "bad" or unreliable. Yet these traits are that person's STRENGTHS! But because of your own makeup, you assume the other person is wrong. In all honesty, I believe Mr. Waters saw things in Mr. Wright--ways that were normal for that man to think and act--and equated them with the parts in himself he preferred to ignore.

Notice that he is fixated on the fear of "weakness" at that time. Start with "Sheep". Then listen to his diatribe in ITAOT. I can almost guarantee it's not the audience in FRONT of him he's talking to.

Also, note in the song "The Final Cut" how he equates these two things:

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And if I show you my DARK SIDE
Will you still hold me tonight?
And if I open my HEART to you
And show you my WEAK SIDE
What would you do?

-----

Notice what he has done. He fears that in him which arises from inward feeling and sentiment rather than from forceful logic. He fears that to expose this will cause him to lose all respect.

And what happens when he sees a person who operates by quiet, inward feeling, who expresses himself through musical subtlety, rather than incisive lyricism?

He turns on him as a living embodiment of his "shadow", the parts of himself that he thinks he has to despise.

I'm sure Mr. Wright was feeling similar things (this I know from my own parallel experience)--he probably felt like he was watching an embodiment of his nastiest inner recesses running around without restraint! And that pushed him away--this is a self-defence mechanism: the hope is (I say it because I tried the same tactic) that by being as unobtrusive and obliging as possible, you will demonstrate your good will and melt that person's heart, so to speak. Sometimes it works. Unfortunately, when dealing with your complete opposite--everything you consider a POSITIVE move will appear as a NEGATIVE move to the other person, and exacerbate the situation.

Unfortunately, whenever he would withdraw, Mr. Waters would see more of the "weakness" he despised. His reaction was that this man needed to be "drawn out", perhaps hit over the head (metaphorically...at least, I HOPE Mr. Waters never threatened him physically) to "slap him into shape". Sometimes this tactic works with some people, who respond by taking it as an impersonal criticism and then do what is required. But with others--it just hurts and makes them withdraw. He'd go after Mr. Wright more, and Mr. Wright would see more of the belligerence HE despised.

The other thing is, that by refusing to change his nature or method of composing, he was very subtly defying the "order" that Mr. Waters had imposed. Mr. Waters is a person very interested in leading. I know someone of a similar personality who uses this saying: "Either lead, follow, or get the hell out of my way." Someone who does not work within such a hierarchal system...well, too bad for them.

Mr. Wright, on the other hand, functions from a "live and let live" policy. He does not wish to lead--BUT--and this is the BIG THING MR. WATERS DID NOT UNDERSTAND--this does NOT mean he has somehow submitted himself to be led. He has no interest in leading--but also no interest in being told what to do. To have someone try to force his will on him feels like a very basic threat to him, to which he will react defensively.

BTW--if anyone in here is familiar with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator...I can show you some interesting theories...

_________________
"And with these words I can see
Clear through the clouds that covered me
Just give it time then speak my name
Now we can hear ourselves again..."

i have tried to follow this conversation about Mr. Wright, However i am just not understanding what is being talk about. I know Wright was not treat well by Waters who pretty much had him kicked out of the band. But from as much as I can understand there was another issue, what is it? you don't need to go into a huge explanation just a simple paragraph summary maybe . . .


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But they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much. And I kept my staples for the Swingline stapler.

Some have made accusations against Mr. Wright that he had a drug problem; however, there is no evidence--only rumour. For this reason, I don't accept it as proven fact.

The coke issue aside, I don't think Waters saw himself in Wright, rather he genuinely disliked him, as is apt to happen when you spend 15 odd years together.

I am just theorising...I've been through an experience where I was forced to deal in close quarters my total opposite, and I remember being very repulsed, thinking "I would NEVER do that!" to just about every move she made!

No offense, but I interpreted that portion of The Final Cut as sarcasm.

I guess I didn't see it as sarcastic because I didn't hear his usual "sarcasm tone" when I listened to him sing those parts. It actually was some of the most touching, *genuinely* heartfelt singing: to me, just his manner of singing showed that he really was saying something deeply meaningful to him. That's a part that seemed sincere, and actually brings me close to tears. I may be a fan of Mr. Wright first. But I appreciate a moving work when I hear it, and The Final Cut--for all its musical lacks, is probably about the third or second most moving album I've ever heard.

I agree, it wasn't sarcasm, but I also don't think it was in any way related to Wright, rather it was his dissatisfication at the post-war world.

He did not relate it to Mr. Wright; I agree. But I believe he is showing the fear in him that caused some of the problem. I think the problems with Mr. Wright are what happened when--rather than deal with his internal turmoil--he decided to take it out on an outward "symbol".

What is it that they say about assumption?

In the additional material included in The Wall DVD, Roger Waters talk about 'his madness'. He explains that he hated the distance (wall) that developed between the band and the audience in stadium gigs and cumulated in him spitting into the face of a hagler in the fron row.

He says that his own behaviour shocked him so much. Thus the character of Pink was born.

AAAGRRRGGGGHHH
I have officaily found it impossible to follow this thread!

cheers

You get other references in the Final Cut which tell us about his inner feelings he wants to hide: e.g. the line about :"If you negotiate the minefield in the drive, and beat the dogs and cheat the cold electronic eye, and ... , and then "dial the combination...." I don't know if anyone here saw the videoclips that accompagnie this lines. Waters sings in the presence of his shrink. On the words "dial the combination", the shrink makes a gesture that seems to tell: "well, i thought i would get to know what lives in your mind, but i understand now that this will never happen; i'll give it up."

Join the club dear