The Gunners Dream

[Number 51]

i'm gonna put this here since i thought of it while listening to the Final Cut, do you think that the Gunners Dream drove Roger insane, like he said in the song, and that now, years later, he is Coming Back to Life??

[sarah goode]

Did a song Waters write drive him insane? Is that the question? I think some people just do not agree with the masses about what is best and they are forced to do things they really have no desire to do. That will drive you crazy everytime. Writing a song is a way of dealing with the insanity.

[Number 51]

not really the song itself, but the dream really. "his dream is driving me insane"

[sarah goode]

I see. It is obviously a part of what bugs him. Is his dad the gunner? I'm not sure what the poppies are about either. Can anyone enlighten me?

[FloydWright]

Don't think his dad was the gunner.

His name was Eric Fletcher Waters (Fletcher Memorial Home...), his unit was in the British army--the Royal Fusiliers, Company C, to be exact. He died at Anzio, in Italy.

My source of information is the song "When the Tigers Broke Free."

[sarah goode]

I KNEW THAT, FloydWright. What kind of a Waters fanatic do you think I am? It's weird because Waters says "I had a dream" so you think he is the gunner doing the narration. Than he speaks of the gunner in 3rd person and says "we cannot just write off his final scene" and stuff like that. Can a royal fusilier not be a gunner? I just always think of his dad on that "final scene" line but I don't know. It is the one floyd album I don't completely get. Like, I don't know what the poppies are all about. I would like to know more about some of those references.

[thorin13]

i think the poppies may be a death thing. i may be wrong i can't remember how it was used in the song.

[sarah goode]

Here is the line I was thinking of (also there are poppies on the cover):

They flutter behind you
your possible pasts
some bright eyed and crazy
some frightened and lost

A warning to anyoyne still in command
of their possible future
to take care.

IN DERELICT SIDINGS THE POPPIES ENTWINE
IN CATTLE TRUCKS LYING IN WAIT
FOR THE NEXT TIME

Do you remember me
how we used to be
do you think we should be closer?

I follow the first two versus but I don't know the poppy reference.

[Organ Grinder]

Damn, after reading that last post, now I want to listen to The Final Cut again. I love that album!

[Gilmourwhore#1]

Originally posted by sarah goode
Here is the line I was thinking of (also there are poppies on the cover):


IN DERELICT SIDINGS THE POPPIES ENTWINE
IN CATTLE TRUCKS LYING IN WAIT
FOR THE NEXT TIME

I follow the first two versus but I don't know the poppy reference.

This might offer a clue, as Roger was influenced by the poet, Dr. John McCrae:

In Flanders Fields

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
--------------------------------------------------------

Poppies only grow where the earth is disturbed (often for burial sites), and after the wars there were field upon field of poppies to be found, due to the destruction. Poppies, as cited above, are now almost universally acknowledged as the "flower of remembrance" for Memorial Day and other solemn remembrances of wartime.

I do believe it may have been John McCrae (i've some research to do, yet) who wrote another poem referenced on TFC, which included the line "There is a corner of a foreign field that remains forever England" (I'm paraphrasing, of course).

Give me time, and I should be able to find it. Enjoying the English Lit/History lesson, folks? LOL

Cheers!

GeeDub#1

[Shane G.]

Good explaining, Geedub#1.
I also find it interesting that that poem also contains the line "We are the Dead". This later showed up in George Orwell's 1984. What year was this poem written? I wonder which appeared first.

What's even more interesting, the song lyric also made me want to listen to TFC. Your Possible Pasts is my favorite from that album.

[Gilmourwhore#1]

My bad... the author of the line about "Forever England" isn't McCrae, but Rupert Brooke. He wrote the War Sonnets, which included the following:

V. The Soldier

If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.

And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Both of the poets I've mentioned wrote during the war years:

John McCrae died in 1918, Rupert Brooke died in 1915.

That's all for today, children. Your homework is to give TFC a good, hard listen, and to ponder the heavy lyrics and their importance in a free-market society.

Cheers!

GeeDub#1

[Shane G.]

Sorry, Miss Geedub#1, I can't do my homework. I can't bring myself to flip to the second side of TFC.
Well... it's better than saying my dog ate it, eh?

[FloydWright]

To Sarah--I recall hearing that some think the "character" in songs 4 and 5 may be the schoolmaster from The Wall (I'll have to ask whoever said that to elaborate). Perhaps he was a veteran flier from the war, and he lost his gunner when the plane was shot down...?

As for TFC, come on now, Shane! Even this WrightSatellite can give it a fairly high endorsement!

[Shane G.]

Originally posted by FloydWright
As for TFC, come on now, Shane! Even this WrightSatellite can give it a fairly high endorsement!

I really can't bring myself to flip it over. Really! I have listened to the whole album, of course. But, by the time the first side ends, all I can think about is the fact that Rick isn't on it... and that the only Gilmour vocal is on the second side, and that I have to wade through more Waters ranting to get to hear it... and the fact that at the end, I get to hear Nick Mason replaced... and also that my favorite song, Your Possible Pasts, has already been heard.

I'll give it respect, of course. There's nothing wrong with the musicianship, or the writing of the songs. I just can't stand the fact that it is basically a Waters solo album , with two Floyd's help.