The Hip Hop Thread

[Sydney]

Welcome to Sydney's Hip Hop convention for the uninformed where I am going to attempt to dispell many myths about this most wonderful musical art from. Here I (and hopefully others) will voice my opinions on the benefits of listening to hip-hop music and why one would be best to not dismiss an entire genre of music and especially one as creative and promising as the genre of hip-hop. This convention is inspired by the realization that a large number of our members feel that this genre has nothing to offer and is only about bling-bling, degrading women, and violence. This convention's not saying you have to like hip-hop, but rather that you should respect it and understand that it's just as promising and authentic as any other art-form or musical genre. To start things off, I am going to respond to a post made in the new cd thread.

Originally Posted by rogerwaters1741

don't get made at SYDNEY,i'm the one who made the comment
Rap/Hip Hop=Violence...I'll admit i was in an extremely bad mood the day i wrote it...I'm not trying to start an argument,but,the very role models for urban youth in america are out shooting or killing each other (Topuc,Notorious B.I.G and Sean Combs)..

earlier this year in ALLHIPHOP.COM is excerp from article:02/13/06

Bay area rapper Mac Minister was profiled on AMERICA'S MOST WANTED...Police have been seeking Mac Minister in connection with the murders of Kansas City rapper Anthony "Fat Tone" Watkins and his companion Jermaine "Cowboy" Atkins...Police suspect Mac Minister and an accomplice, Jason "Corleone"Mathis,of killing Fat Tone and Cowboy in retaliation for the murder of of Vallejo rapper Andre "Mac Dre"Hcks...

Now i realise these are isolated cases,but,above article was the lead article on web site that day...like they're bragging about it...

Here in urban america crime is down,but,murders with hand guns are up...Virtually every large city will break record for most murders in the year,over 30,000 murders in USA last year...

Now Im not blaming all this mayhem on rap/hip hop music,but,when urban kids see these performers "packin heat" and body guards doing the same,they think it's OK...

Here in Buffalo this past week an 18 year old aspiring rap singer shot point blank 2 cops...the shooter got off 5 rounds,3 connected...the female cop has a bullet lodged on her spine,as of today parylized...the male cop took 2 shots from so close he has powder burns,he was released from hospital over weekend...He blames himself because his partner may never walk again...the shooter just bought gun the day before for protection,these kids have no fear of authority...

There have more murders in Buffalo,NY this month than have been in Australia in last 5 years...

Right, I am not going to get into the sociological implications of why hip hop would at all be about violence or why an 18 yr old rapper feels the need to buy a gun for protection and then feels the need to proceed to shoot a cop, or any of that crap because it's not for this thread. I'm more than happy to start another thread in the Dark Side of the forum and argue this with you til we're blue in the face.

But allow me to address why hip hop is a vibrant, exciting, innovative form of musical expression. Why it is the most progressive form today and why hip hop is hardly about violence at all (and if it is, why it is, and what this implies... )

FIRSTLY

Hip hop is in many ways the most innovative and consistently evolving music genre around, as well as the newest. So yeah, you've got The Game and 50 Cent, but for those guys there is a creative flank, as is the case with ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING ( I'm sure we could all name many many shocking bands from the 70s that had wide mainstream appeal, while we as PF fans stared on in horror)

So Check it;
Unsatisfied with 50? Listen to MF Doom.
Don't dig The Game? Try Blackalicious.
Absolutely hate Eminem? Please. get to Aesop Rock.
Craving for some creative rap in the mainstream? Outkast.

The possibilities with rap are as endless as any other genre. I don't see why people continue to single out the genre of hip-hop as something less substantial or less promising than any other artform. I guess this is the exact same thing that happened when Syd turned his back on the audience in london clubs in the mid 60s, but two years later, with the release of sgt Pepper and everyone was lapping it up. I would argue that this is the time for hip hop to go through the same transition and indeed there are already figurehead albums that have served this very purpose.
It was with the release of Sgt Pepper's that people became aware of rock's true potential and possiblities. I'm already aware of hip-hop's potential and thanks to the open-mindedness of the youth, all of the great music to be inspired by, and p2p internet sharing the most creative minds of this young and already impressive genre are still yet to be seen.


Hip-hop has the ability to incorporate anything and everything a person chooses to fuse it with. Just because YOU don't see a huge amount of variety in alot of hip-hop doesn't mean it isn't happening. Hip-hop is the youngest of all the popular genres, it's only been around for 20 years and it's been evolving and growing since it's birth just like every other genre of music. Hip-hop can go where ever you can take it, and you can be as creative as your mind will allow you to be, you don't have to sample or loop anything, you can put together a rock band and make hip-hop music, you can put together a jazz trio and make hip-hop music, you can put together a damn polka group and make hip-hop music if you want to, or you can fuse all of those genres together and make hip-hop music and you could stay true to the form and retain the essence and spirit thats existed in hip-hop since the beginning.

Rock and roll borrows from itself all the time, but since you need a reason to condemn an entire genre, you can't accept it's being done in rap. Hip hop is the most vocally based music form, it relies on a person being actually talented at writing lyrics and following a poetic meter.

and to quote an intelligent young man from another forum I frequent

To be quite honest, there is more of a sense of discovery, independence, freshness, and relevance to hip hop than there is in rock right now. Even currently good bands like The Arcade Fire and Broken Social Scene exist on the basis of foundations laid by bands before them whereas hip-hop is the only medium with something to say. Just because there is much bullshit on the radio does not constitute the dismissal of an entire genre.

I don't give a damn what anybody says but as tough as it was to write Deloused in the Comatorium, it was probably as tough to bring together Shades of Blue or Madvillainy. In fact, I'd argue there is more of an intellectual sense of criticism in hip-hop than there ever was in rock. Rarely, excluding the lyrical dryness of certain bands during the punk era, has there been a rock band with the same weight lyrically - rock bands seem to only criticize society in terms of their musical approach. With hip-hop, the ideas are substantiated by the music and then subsequently prevalent in the wordplay and furthermore, through sampling, hip-hop always can retain a fresh identity. If anything rock is more visceral and less thought out than rap, so I don't want to hear anymore of this bullshit about the lack of intellect in hip-hop. A couple of bad apples on the radio don't ruin rock music - I don't see why the same shouldn't hold true for hip-hop.

Now for all of you who think that the hip hop role models for today's youth are murdering thugs let us take a look at some examples of hip hop lyrics from today's most signifcant hip hop artists..

[Sydney]

Blackalicious

FREE! Like a bird out in the wind in the night
Like a 747 to LA that's in flight
FREE! Like a garden flourishing in the wind
Like a student bout to do it when he's graduatin
FREE! From any of the energy perception
Can never be defined create the definition within
FREE! Just lovin life itself and never pretend to be
Anything other than the man I was meant to be
Travel through time and get a glimpse of the centuries
To come a better day is promised remember

Edan

I simply use a rapper's bones to build to build my third niche
I work with the aesthetic of a brain medic
Cutting up the reels with crystal shards to make the tape edit
I take lettuce, onions, tomatoe
Add a dab of mayo plus the fish fillet-o
Appetizing gray matter with a strange platter
The symmetry of energy with chemistry and plasma
After you latch on to lost masters
Come back to re-evaluate the now chapter
Style masters born to make classics
And paint canvas geometric break dances
The almighty made Saturn caves and caverns
The flames of magma rivers in Niagara
All of this beauty can be yours to discover
Can't you see it brother?
Without the LSD I see colors

Common

want to be as free as the spirits of those who left
I'm talking Malcom, Coltrane, my man Yusef
Through death through conception
New breath and resurrection
For moms, new steps in her direction
In the right way
Told inside is where the fight lay
And everything a nigga do may not be what he might say
Chicago nights stay, stay on the mind
But I write many lives and lay on these lines
Wave the signs of the times
Many say the grind's on the mind
Shorties blunted-eyed and everyone wonderin' where I'm
Bush pushing lies, killers immortalized
We got arms but won't reach for the skies
Waiting for the Lord to rise
I look into my daughter's eyes
And realize that I'ma learn through her
The Messiah, might even return through her
If I'ma do it, I gotta change the world through her

Saul Williams

Nah.
I wasn’t raised at gunpoint and I’ve read too many books
to distract me from the mirror when unhappy with my looks
and I ain’t got proper diction for the makings of a thug
though I grew up in the ghetto and my niggers all sold drugs,
and though that may validate me for a spot on MTV
or get me all the airplay that my bank account would need,
I was hoping to invest in a lesson that I learned
I thought this fool had jumped me just because it was my turn.
I went to an open space 'cause I knew he wouldn’t do it
if somebody there could see him or somebody else might prove it,
and maybe, in your eyes, it may seem I got punked out
'cause I walked a narrow path and then went and changed my route.
But that openness exposed me to a truth I couldn’t find
in the clenched fists of my ego or the confines of my mind
or the hipness of my swagger, or the swagger in my step,
or the scowl of my grimace, or the meanness of my rep.
'cause we represent a truth son, the changes by the hour,
and when you open to it, vulnerability is power,
and in that shifting form you’ll find a truth that doesn’t change
and that truth is living proof of the fact that God is strange…

Talk to strangers
when the family fails and friends lead you astray
when Buddha laughs and Jesus weeps and it turns out God is gay.
'Cause angels and messiahs love can come in many forms:
in the hallways of your projects, or the fat girl in your dorm,
and when you finally take the time to see what they’re about
perhaps you find them lonely or their wisdom trips you out.

maybe you’ll find the spot where cycles end you're back where you began,
but come this time around you’ll have someone to hold your hand,
who prays for you who is there for you who sends you love and light,
exposes you to parts of you that you once tried to fight.
But come this time around you'll choose to walk a different path,
you'll embrace what you turned away and cry at what you laughed,
'cause that’s the only way we’re going to make it through this storm,
where ignorance is common sense and senselessness the norm.
And flags wave high above the truth and the two never touch
and stolen goods are overpriced and freedom costs too much,
and no one seems to recognize the symbols come to life,
the bitten apple on the screen and Jesus had a wife,
and she was his Messiah like that stranger may be yours,
who holds a subtle knife that carves through worlds like magic doors,
and that’s what I’ve been looking for, the bridge from then to now,
just watching BET like what the **** son? this is foul
But that square box don't represent the sphere that we live in,
the earth is not a flat screen I ain’t trying to fit in.
But this ain’t for the underground this here is for the sun.
A seed a stranger gave to me and planted on my tongue.
And when I look at you, I know I’m not the only one.
As a great man once said,
there’s nothing more powerful
than an idea
who’s time
has come.

Right.. that took a very long time..

I'd like to conclude by saying that I do not deny the presence of violence in hip hop, however the point I am trying to make is that it is the violent themes that are the exception to the rule, not the other way around, and because I am too tired to articulate anything, I am going to once again quote someone else to drive my final point across..

I wouldn't say most. Extreme violence in hip-hop didn't really start until the late 80s/early 90s, and even then there was always an alternative to that. If you consider all of hip-hop since its inception in the late 70s, I would say easily less than half of its output has been violent. Alot of artists may have spoken about the violence that occured around them, but as far as rappers celebrating their own violent ways, I don't think you really start seeing that until releases like N.W.A.'s "Straight Out Of Compton," Kool G. Raps "Road To The Riches," and Ice-T's earlier stuff. I'm sure their were some lesser known acts promoting violence before them, but it wasn't a national movement until these albums blew up.

ALSO.. hip hop is not a movement exclusive to the states. There is a specific Aussie hip hop genre, the French really dig it too and, hell even Romania has hip hop bands. The beats and instant appeal of hip hop is universal and not exclusive to african american culture.

The end

[Bride of a Bull]

Hip hop is shit poetry, not music at all. Eat shit; a hundred million flies can't all be wrong.

If it was actually any good, I doubt it would need such ardent justification, but take no notice of this product of the South Central, West Side "ghetto." Keep wearing the jeans below your butt and walk like you've cacked your pants. The hip-hop brotherhood (aka music industry) will claim you as one of their own. Idealistic, but socially bankrupt by bling bias.

I cannot see the appeal, frankly as I only grew up beneath the shadows of self-indulgent prison-minded society of my "gangsta" fellows at home, at school, and even at play. Personally, Dre, Snoop, Fiddy and the rest, including the reactionary, East Side hip-hopster, Will Smith, deserve whatever they get, as do their followers.

The Old World (Oz, France and even Romania) also deserves hip-hop to show them exactly how to live in fear and distrust of their own youth. I say, hip-hop-along.

<rant ends>

How has Dyders been lately nyway?

[Two-Headed Boy]

This is my favorite rap song.

*WARNING CONTAINS VULGAR LANGUAGE AND IMAGERY OF MURDER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT*




Right about now NWA court is in full effect.
Judge Dre presiding in the case of NWA versus the police department.
Prosecuting attourneys are MC Ren Ice Cube and Eazy muthafuckin E.
Order order order. Ice Cube take the muthafuckin stand.
Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth
and nothin but the truth so help your black ass?

Why don't you tell everybody what the **** you gotta say?

**** tha police
Comin straight from the underground
Young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
And not the other color so police think
They have the authority to kill a minority

**** that shit, cuz I ain't tha one
For a punk muthafucka with a badge and a gun
To be beatin on, and throwin in jail
We could go toe to toe in the middle of a cell

Fuckin with me cuz I'm a teenager
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin my car, lookin for the product
Thinkin every nigga is sellin narcotics

You'd rather see me in the pen
Then me and Lorenzo rollin in the Benzo
Beat tha police outta shape
And when I'm finished, bring the yellow tape
To tape off the scene of the slaughter
Still can't swallow bread and water

I don't know if they fags or what
Search a nigga down and grabbin his nuts
And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
But don't let it be a black and a white one
Cuz they slam ya down to the street top
Black police showin out for the white cop

Ice Cube will swarm
On any muthafucka in a blue uniform
Just cuz I'm from the CPT, punk police are afraid of me
A young nigga on a warpath
And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
Of cops, dyin in LA
Yo Dre, I got somethin to say

**** the police (4X)







M. C. Ren, will you please give your testimony to the jury about this fucked up incident.>

**** tha police and Ren said it with authority
because the niggaz on the street is a majority.
A gang, is with whoever I'm stepping
and the motherfuckin' weapon
is kept in a stash box, for the so-called law
wishin' Ren was a nigga that they never saw

Lights start flashin behind me
But they're scared of a nigga so they mace me to blind me
But that shit don't work, I just laugh
Because it gives em a hint not to step in my path

To the police I'm sayin **** you punk
Readin my rights and shit, it's all junk
Pullin out a silly club, so you stand
With a fake assed badge and a gun in your hand

But take off the gun so you can see what's up
And we'll go at it punk, I'ma **** you up

Make ya think I'm a kick your ass
But drop your gat, and Ren's gonna blast
I'm sneaky as **** when it comes to crime
But I'm a smoke em now, and not next time

Smoke any muthafucka that sweats me
Or any assho that threatens me
I'm a sniper with a hell of a scope
Takin out a cop or two, they can't cope with me

The muthafuckin villian that's mad
With potential to get bad as ****
So I'm a turn it around
Put in my clip, yo, and this is the sound
Ya, somethin like that, but it all depends on the size of the gat

Takin out a police would make my day
But a nigga like Ren don't give a **** to say

**** the police (4X)


Police, open now. We have a warrant for Eazy-E's arrest.
Get down and put your hands up where I can see em.
Just shut the **** up and get your muthafuckin ass on the floor.
[huh?]>


and tell the jury how you feel abou this bullshit.>

I'm tired of the muthafuckin jackin
Sweatin my gang while I'm chillin in the shackin
Shining tha light in my face, and for what
Maybe it's because I kick so much butt

I kick ass, or maybe cuz I blast
On a stupid assed nigga when I'm playin with the trigga
Of any Uzi or an AK
Cuz the police always got somethin stupid to say

They put up my picture with silence
Cuz my identity by itself causes violence
The E with the criminal behavior
Yeah, I'm a gansta, but still I got flavor

Without a gun and a badge, what do ya got?
A sucka in a uniform waitin to get shot,
By me, or another nigga.
and with a gat it don't matter if he's smarter or bigger
[MC Ren: Sidle him, kid, he's from the old school, fool]

And as you all know, E's here to rule
Whenever I'm rollin, keep lookin in the mirror
And there's no cue, yo, so I can hear a
Dumb muthafucka with a gun

And if I'm rollin off the 8, he'll be tha one
That I take out, and then get away
And while I'm drivin off laughin
This is what I'll say

**** the police (4X)


The jury has found you guilty of bein a redneck,
whitebread, chickenshit muthafucka.
Wait, that's a lie. That's a goddamn lie.
I want justice! I want justice!
**** you, you black muthafucka!>

**** the police (3X)




ANYWAYS. Subtle is my favorite, really.

[Bride of a Bull]

^ Exactly the sort of thing I was ranting about.

[Dark Guitarist]

In general, rap is terible. A lot of my friends listen to rap, so I have to heard that crap all the time. There are, however, a few listenable groups. Outkast is pretty good, their stuff is very catchy. Also, Afroman is hilarious.

[fixxlevy]

The Love Below was one of the most returned (to point of purchase) albums in the UK and continues to be.

Widescreen tellies, blunts (and bitches),

Mark

[Sydney]

Originally Posted by Bride of a Bull

Hip hop is shit poetry, not music at all. Eat shit; a hundred million flies can't all be wrong.

If it was actually any good, I doubt it would need such ardent justification, but take no notice of this product of the South Central, West Side "ghetto." Keep wearing the jeans below your butt and walk like you've cacked your pants. The hip-hop brotherhood (aka music industry) will claim you as one of their own. Idealistic, but socially bankrupt by bling bias.

I cannot see the appeal, frankly as I only grew up beneath the shadows of self-indulgent prison-minded society of my "gangsta" fellows at home, at school, and even at play. Personally, Dre, Snoop, Fiddy and the rest, including the reactionary, East Side hip-hopster, Will Smith, deserve whatever they get, as do their followers.

The Old World (Oz, France and even Romania) also deserves hip-hop to show them exactly how to live in fear and distrust of their own youth. I say, hip-hop-along.

<rant ends>

How has Dyders been lately nyway?

hahaha! aaah B, you're excused from this discussion for you are old

Though really, were you not a young spritly man around the time of hip hop's birth?
Seriously though, Saul Williams, isn't bad poetry, it's very very good poetry which then becomes hip hop.

I've been well dearie, working, studying, running off to music festivals in a van with my friends for new yrs. Life is pretty swell.

Two headed boy clearly didn't read the second of my posts as I point out that the drivel he posted is the exception to the rule of hip hop, not the norm.

eh

[Melo]

I don't like rap, but I respect it by the meaning of the lyrics.

[GeraldTheMouse]

How come the people who complain about violence in rap never complain about the violence in country? Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

The only difference I can find is that old white people listen to country rather than young black people.

[stratman]

I have to side with BoaB and rw1741 on this one.

Regardless of Rap lyrics, which, IMO, are vapid and trite at best, vile and disgusting at worst, hip hop is BORING. Watch one HH video or listen to one HH "song", and you've pretty much heard it all.

I guess it's just a function of my old age, but when I see one of those little punk bastards with his pants down below his butt, flashing his gang signs and going on about his bitches and hoes, I want to knock him flat on his ass.

For those who like it, fine. But please don't try to tell me that it is somehow
equal to real music.

[GeraldTheMouse]

Vapid:

Would you rather have a Lexus or justice
A dream or some substance
A neclace, a Beamer, or freedom?

Not vapid:

She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah
And with a love like that, you know you should be glad.

[GeraldTheMouse]

Originally Posted by stratman

Watch one HH video or listen to one HH "song", and you've pretty much heard it all.
For those who like it, fine. But please don't try to tell me that it is somehow
equal to real music.

Also are you aware just how much you sound like a critic of jazz in the 20s or of rock in the 50s?

[Dark Guitarist]

Originally Posted by GeraldTheMouse

Also are you aware just how much you sound like a critic of jazz in the 20s or of rock in the 50s?

No, that's different. Rap has been around for over 20 years. It's not like it's brand new as rock was in the 50s.

[GeraldTheMouse]

Originally Posted by Dark Guitarist

No, that's different. Rap has been around for over 20 years. It's not like it's brand new as rock was in the 50s.

The problem is the same, though. Unfamiliarity means that to the listener it all sounds the same, and it's just as invalid a criticism now as it was then.

Also frightened white people were saying that about jazz well into the 50s.